"Rap and Poetry had a baby named Spoken Word."

I saw this episode for the first time over a year ago, and it still cracks me up on a regular basis.

Even when it's not playing on my screen.

Awk. Ward.


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So, it's not just me?

Dating 101: Dealing With the Race Factor, by Arnold Chao, Yahoo! Personals.

Internet love is not colorblind, UC Irvine study. Emphases mine.

[UC Irvine sociologists] Cynthia Feliciano and Belinda Robnett collected data from Yahoo personals between September 2004 and May 2005, randomly selecting profiles of people ages 18-50 in the Los Angeles, New York, Chicago and Atlanta metropolitan regions. While white men were more open to dating outside their race than white women, both had specific racial preferences. White men preferred Asian and Latino dating partners to African Americans; white women were more likely to exclude Asian men.

According to Feliciano, negative portrayals of African American women and Asian men in popular culture could contribute to these preferences.

"Stereotypical images of masculinity and femininity shape dating choices and continue to be perpetuated in the mass media," says Feliciano, sociology and Chicano/Latino studies assistant professor. "The hyper-feminine image of Asian American women contrasts greatly with that of Asian men, who are often portrayed as asexual."

In comparison, the image of the strong African American woman is at odds with idealized notions of submissive and frail women. This may explain why African American women faced high levels of rejection among men, researchers say.

"Cultural portrayals of African American women in the media continue to stress traits seen as negative, such as bossiness," Feliciano says.

[...]

Researchers' analysis of minorities' racial preferences showed that Asians, African Americans and Latinos are more likely to include whites as possible dates than whites are to include them. This suggests that whites, as the dominant group in the U.S., remain in the privileged position of being able to facilitate or hinder the full incorporation of minorities.

Or maybe I'm a crooked pot without a crooked cover due to my "bossiness." I'm sure that's it.

Also, way to be timely, Yahoo! and UC Irvine. I re-reported this phenomenon two years ago, and Racialicious still reports on interracial relationships regularly. Their Craigslist personals article from two years ago is still my favorite. I also enjoyed the open thread on dating that followed a year and a half later.

Furthermore, the survey should have examined same-sex relationships as well. Way to be heteronormative, sociologists.

Ooh! I liked this post, too, by the Frog Princess. I have been saying the same thing for years, yet it is so hard for my friends to comprehend my outlook and my situation. As the Frog Princess says about the open thread on Racialicious, "The article and the comments really validated what I’d been feeling my whole life but that I’m not allowed to say in public because it makes some people uncomfortable."

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It's not just me.

Here are even more comments to go along with yesterday's post, Another discussion that needs to start happening.

I agree with Shelby :

Demographics: I’m a 21 yr old black woman from a middle class (99%white) background.

I can identify SO much with the other black women here who haven’t gotten ANY love from anyBODY. And it does chip away at my self-esteem. Big time. No one approached me, ever, in high school and I figured that was just because white guys didn’t date black girls in my town. But the REAL blow didn’t come til college when virtually no guy, of any race, has ever approached me. I would love to be in a relationship with a caring person of any race, but it just doesn’t happen. The only time black guys try to holla is if they think I’m mixed. Once they find out both my parents are black they’re done. And the only other guys that even try to talk to me are drunk white boys who want me to shake my @ss for them.

Needless to say it’s all really disheartening. And I could be in a relationship right now if I lowered my standards and allowed myself to be exoticized. But who really wants that?

It’s hard being aware. [I hear that. Things were easier when I thought I was just an unpopular dork.] I can’t forget the fact that, as a black woman, I have virtually no value to the general population. And I see this fact confirmed just about every day :/

The following comment from Korolev sounds kinda familiar, emphases mine:

People like who they like, and that can be across ethnic lines. Nobody should feel ashamed for being attracted to someone they like.

Human beings are rather simple when it comes to matters such as sex or relationships. Somehow I strongly doubt that anyone starts a relationship thinking “ah-hah, this is my primary method of subliminally rejecting my culture and betraying my people! Surely this relationship is the perfect vehicle in which to express my self-loathing and complete my goal of destroying my background!” I doubt anyone thinks that when getting into a relationship. Usually…. it’s, um, a lot more simple and visual than that.

Now, a lot has been made of “racial fetishes”, and they exist, sure. But pretty much everyone has a “fetish” of some sort. If men tend to date skinnier woman, do they have “thin” fetish? And when woman constantly tell me “I’ll only date taller men”, isn’t that a type of fetish itself? And if someone exclusively dates within their own ethnic group, isn’t that a form of “fetish”?

At the end of the day, if someone really believes that all races are 100% equal, that all of humanity is truly united by our shared genetic template, then they wouldn’t care. Those who argue that inter-racial relationships “destroy self-esteem” are secretly racists - as in, they believe differences exist between races.

Again, if you truly believe that race is unimportant, you wouldn’t care who was dating who. All of humanity is the same. When you look at an Asian woman dating a black man or a black man dating a Native-American woman or a white man dating an Arabic woman or an Indian man dating an Asian woman, you shouldn’t think of their ethnicity, merely their common humanity.

I know that some people get angry when they seem members of their own ethnicity having so much success with inter-racial relationships. This form of envy is particularly acute in the Asian community. But at the end of the day, if you really, 100% believe that all of humanity is equal, you wouldn’t care who dated who.

Those who care about such things often see race - as in they think in terms of “our women” or “their men” or “our group”. That’s a form of racism - let me be clear - anyone who believes that race has any biological significance is a racist. That’s what the dictionary says. Therefore, it is racist to say things like “our women” or “our men”.

I know that some people get “hurt” when the perceive “their own” woman abandoning them. However, those thoughts are completely racist and unacceptable. No one should ever feel ashamed about who they like, no one should ever feel a “duty” to marry within ethnic lines, and no one has the right to tell someone “your love is just a fetish”.

To oppose interracial relationships is to oppose the unity of humanity. The human species is united, gloriously and completely through our common genetic template, a wonderful unity that is sadly realized by too few in this world.

We are a united species, in truth through DNA.

DNA? Oh, the hilarity. The jokes continue with eric daniels again. Emphases mine, sic and run-on sentences his:

. . . My problem with Black Feminists and Black Women in general [Yes, all of us] streotype black men in every way since the 80’s just like Black Men telling me in the 1980’s (and today)saying that “sistas want too much” in a relationship and white women are easier to deal with, and with “many” Black Women say that there are no ‘eligble Black Men left’ with the same excuses, so what is an eligible man if you saw “Something New” in Kris Turner’s flawed world an IBM (Ideal Black Man)was a brotha with

1. an advanced degree
2. makes high 5 figures and up
3. lives in 6-7 figure home/apt
4. goes to expensive restraunts
5. dresses right and has good, clean white teeth and metrosexual
6. Is close to making partner at the law firm

So if these are the standards that educated Black Women and increasing numbers of the middle and working class have for black men these days, then I say with all due respect date White, Asian, Hispanic and men of other races and I hope you find that common connection and future happiness at least I know where Black Women stand in the modern dating/marriage game.

Well, good for him.

Elton's response to Korolev made more sense:

. . . Why can’t we all just be colorblind? And forget the past few hundred years of colonialism, oppression, and injustice? Asian-American men are not ignorant of history. We discuss terms like “White knight” and “White worship” because they are relevant to the history of our patterns of immigration to America and the rest of the Western world, and how we were treated by the dominant white powers. Let me ask you this: Do you know why so many Asian men (historically and even now) run laundries, restaurants, grocery stores, and gas stations? Did you notice that during WWII, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War that the US occupied three major Asian countries? Do you know the profound impact on Asian and American culture the past 60 years of occupation has had? The American phenomenon of Asian babies being adopted predominantly by white families and the outmarriage of Asian women to black and white American men, beginning with soldiers, are but two of the myriad effects of cultural imperialism. But hey, at least we have Tiger Woods and Chinese buffets.

G. Leigh wrote:

@lunanoire

” Also, there is less of a problem for beautiful black women who also appear mixed.”

I’d really like to nip this kind of thinking in the bud.

I am one of those women. I appear mixed, but both of my parents are Black. I am beautiful, I am educated, talented, fun, single, no children, financially independent, normally neurotic, living in Manhattan and an artist. I get looks from Black men, and I have had two marriage offers from Black men who, I realized, really just wanted a trophy, a doll to look at and play with. When they realized I was a 3-dimensional woman with a brain and feelings and opinions this made them very uncomfortable. I said “no” to both proposals. (However, I don’t think that particular issue is limited to Black women–I think that a man wanting to marry a woman for the wrong reasons is just common to womankind).

Since then I have dated a Black man from Trinidad (who didn’t want to get married), a WASP, a Cuban and the latest one a nice Jewish boy from Long Island. No Black man has asked me out in five years. I’ve been holla-ed or inappropriately approached (”hey baby” or worse, etc.) but that is it. When I ignore that type of approach, the standard response is “I bet if I was white you’d like me.” I’ve heard that so many times it doesn’t phase me anymore.

When I used to go to parties, clubs or events with primarily Black people, many women would clutch their men when I walked in the room. I’ve stopped attending those kind of events.

I have had Black men let me know that they were dating a White or Asian woman–and the emphasis was always on the woman’s race, and it was held up to me as some kind of personal victory for them. A kind of “See? You light and everything but I got someone better than you–I got the authentic, non-white woman.” It’s hard to explain, but anyone who has had this experience will know exactly what I am talking about. I think it’s really sick and pathological.

Things are not easier for a fair-skinned, “beautiful” , maybe mixed-Black woman. My pysche is that of a Black person, specifically my daddy who was raised in the segregated south. I find it hard to believe that a man outside my race is interested in me for other than my looks. (Another issue of being raised primarily by my dad. I was taught to pay more attention to my brains than my looks, so when my outside is paid more attention than my inside it still freaks me out). Whenever a man who is non-Black shows an interest in me I pretty much don’t know how to respond, and the man thinks I am not interested in him and backs off.

I pretty much ruined things with the nice Jewish boy, and am working on getting that back. I couldn’t stand the stares; I thought it was because we were a interracial couple. Finally I confessed to one of my friends why I stopped dating him and she looked at me like I was crazy. She said, “People stared at you two because you’re both really good-looking. You ass.” (it was said with love). I really didn’t get it. And I had pushed away someone who really liked me, and was funny, sweet and kind.

So, again, what is supposed to be easier for us yallas in relationships? Let me tell you, absolutely nothing. That is a big, fat myth.

I would like to get married and have a family. I would welcome a decent man of any race. If I do not deal with my “stuff”, I am going to miss out on happiness.

Who has time for revenge dating when just dating period can be so hard?

Then eric daniels wrote something about The Sopranos, and if we were bringing up TV shows, I wanted to interject with my feeling about Best Week Ever, because I love that show.

Anyhoodle, later lemure wrote (emphases mine):

This discussion (and that photo) is extremely fascinating to me, despite the regurgitation of some painful stereotypes and memories.

I spent alot of angry years on and off lamenting about why I spent so many nights watching White girlfriends, who I really thought I, and many of my girlfriends of color, were more attractive than both inside and out, get asked out and fawned over on endless dates. It was particularly hard in college, because I left my diverse NYC for an Ivy, AND it was my first allowed entry in the dating world.

I knew it wasn’t because I wasn’t good looking. Plenty of White, Black, and everything in between told me I was hot, hell a whole frat was infatuated. But, all these men just saw me as a sex object, not a potential relationship. I was very young, naive, and clueless. While I kept the wolves at bay, the entire experience left me very jaded and feeling quite tainted. I’m not biracial (not in the most immediate sense), at the time my appeal was based on form, face, probably an adorable Grenadian/Brooklyn accent and to both alot of Black (cuz they were raised with White people) and White men on being “something new”, especially since this NY kid wasn’t fearful of any new color.

I have two South Asian girlfriends, one is Pakistani, one is Indian and their experiences were the same as mine. I moved back to NY after college, with the bitterness of four years, that slowly subsided with age and wisdom. I learned to stay away from the type of guys I met in college and after a few long term relationships and many very, very short term. I decided not to date White men anymore. I dated plenty, too many issues of various kinds. My head knows that it isn’t fair, but my feelings are different. My South Asian girlfriends moved to NY, and you know what? They pretty much gave up on White men too, similar reasons. The Pakistani girl is trying to find her perfect Pakistani Muslim knight (she’s beautiful, but the ones she meets find her “too dark” and too career driven). My Bengali friend is American and finds it hard to meet a soul mate that matches her, but she’s shown interested in some cute East Asian doctors that work with her. I’m very tough and picky, but I didn’t find the perfect Grenadian man, but I’m in love with another Caribbean, Puerto Rico but close enough.

I don’t condone the namecalling in the name of bitterness, but I understand it. How one is perceived in desirability has a HUGE effect on one’s self esteem. Being a sex object can make you feel both powerful and powerless, lack of attention can make you feel non existent. Hell years ago I said to myself Asian men and Black women should try dating each other. Its worked pretty well in the islands (incl my tree) for awhile. Yeah love is love, but it would be nicer if everyone was getting it.

That's all for now! Feel free to leave comments. Also, I noticed no one has commented on my chimpanzee post, and I thought that post was funny! Chimpanzee vote. Ha ha? Because they're fictional? And even if they were real, they're not human? It's funny, gosh darn it!

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Another discussion that needs to start happening.

Although this one is not as pressing.

Interracial Dating: Interracial Dating with a Vengeance, by Nadra Kareem at Racialicious.

I liked the comments better that the post, specifically in response to the author's assertion that

. . . there are plenty of Asian women available for Asian men to date and plenty of black men available for black women to date (though black women reportedly have the lowest marriage rate of any other group of women), but the perception is that they are being left behind, and perception influences action.

Where are these "plenty of black men"? I don't see "plenty of black men" anywhere I go.


lunanoire wrote:

. . . It’s easy for others to dismiss the pain of those who feel unwanted b/c of their race/gender if you have not gone through it yourself. There is a world of difference between discussing “when” in reference instead of “if.”

If you’re in an environment where few people are interested in someone of your race/gender, it’s a blow to the psyche. Everybody needs love.

If you think this issue has been blown out of proportion, you are likely to not be on the bottom of the race/gender totem pole, and you can view dating/marriage/etc. as something that is a likely possiblity in your future, depending on the state for queer couples.

In the Af-Am commnity, there are “plenty” of single men, but the number disparity still exists b/c of jail/prision/early death. Many men who do have a job and/or education know that they are highly desired by women from many ethnicities, so they don’t have to commit to any woman if they don’t want to. If he does, he can pick a better-looking woman than he would otherwise if the gender disparity did not exist.

Someone in a much earlier thread metioned that many black girls in mixed environments have friends but few dates. For some, this pattern continues into adulthood.

B wrote:

I’m a black woman married to a white man. I don’t think that I was at all influenced by those negative perceptions of black men. Rather, I wasn’t around as many black men, and it was as simple as that. (My husband and I met in a college class together that was in my major and his minor field. While the university was fairly diverse, my major was pretty lily-white, with only a few other black folk.) In general, we find that people are more surprised at our pairing than one of a white woman and black man, but that we haven’t met nearly as much resentment and anger as the latter pairing. Usually, people just don’t believe we’re together, or try to figure out who we possibly could have ended up together. (I tend to think the “where did you meet” line of inquiry is a little suspect when people ask it after they know our occupations and hear us speak; we’re both humanities grad students with distinctly Northeastern accents. I notice that people aren’t as compelled to ask, say, same-race couples where one is an engineer with a southern accent and the other is a ballet dancer with an old-money New England accent where *they* met.) Incidentally, I did date a Chinese-American man in college who had a Chinese-American friend who was also dating a black woman. One night when the 4 of us were hanging out (this might have been when we were still friends/before we dated?), one of the guys joked that it was an ideal situation for all the Asian men and black women that get left out of interracial dating, so it does seem to be an issue that occurs to people, even if it doesn’t seriously factor into who they end up with.

B-T-dubs, I don't currently know that many Asian men (or many men in general, since almost all my friends are women), so that "ideal" situation is a hypothetical one for me.

Ron wrote:

. . . I find it ironic that black men complain about black women who date out considering the ratio is almost 10:1.

B then wrote in response to another comment:

Rachel,
I think that your point is heartening–that this stuff isn’t as big a deal for younger people. I also agree with you–I think people in my parent’s generation got way more flack than interracial couples do now.

That said, I’d push you to think how common those interracial relationships are once you’re out of college, and once folks start getting married and/or taking other steps establishing life-long commitments. I personally dated a few non-black guys that were down with me at school, but weren’t going to take me home to meet their mothers. In both the case of me (black woman) and my husband (white guy), a bunch of our friends of varying races *dated* interracially at one time or another, but none of them have domestic partners or fiances or spouses or live-ins that are of a different race.

Ali wrote:

Well I’m not in a interracial relationship and technically I don’t even really date (this is not necessarily by choice) but this subject is near and dear to my heart so I’d like to offer my two cents. Man, this is an emotional topic, so hopefully I don’t get too rambly. lunanoire, I co-sign your post inside and out! Especially, “If you’re in an environment where few people are interested in someone of your race/gender, it’s a blow to the psyche. Everybody needs love.” SO TRUE. I’m still dealing with a lot of self perception crap that resulted from growing up in a nearly all white suburb. To this day both of my brothers date white women (pretty much exclusively), at first it used to piss me off but when I really thought about it I realized they don’t deserve to be with any woman they couldn’t fully appreciate be she black or otherwise. I strongly disagree that there are plenty of black men around for black women to date. Now, if this is some how true and I am mistaken would someone please kindly point me in the direction of the black man buffet? Even as a preteen I could tell that the black women in my area had to try SO much harder to impress black men. Beautiful black women were passed over (and in some cases flat our ignored) for Latinas and white girls regularly . . .

london wrote:

interracial relationships are the norm over here in london…
my generation - i am 42 and a first gen black briton - have grown up with mixed race kids and known their parents…
it could be that most kids here in london now are mixed.. they are mainly all shades of brown..
i don’t even notice..
couples are couples and kids are kids.. it’s not a perceptible issue…

This comment made me giggle. Despite london's claim, I don't think that the UK's child population is made up of mostly mixed individuals. Even if the children were indeed "mainly all shades of brown", there are many people that are simply born brown because both of their parents are brown. I refer you to the main character of Bend It Like Beckham.

And then there's the crazy. eric daniels wrote:

I don’t want to be mean to all the people involved in IR relationships particularly on this topic but WHO GIVES A DAMN !!!! . . .

. . . B and Rachel, I don’t buy the "lack of eligible Black Men in 2008 no more than I did in the 80’s when professional and stable working- class Black Men run that nonsense by me. In the 80’s I used to say there were no Black Rocker Boho types who would like Black Flag, Duran Duran, and Luther or Al Green so I dated White and Hispanic women for revenge for Black Women supposedly rejecting me. Then some astute Brothas told me you would get the same share of women of any race if you opened your eyes.

And in a way they were right, I have dated Professional, Working Class women of all races since 1987 and I am a working - class Black Male and I can hang in any social circle. I am tired of of hearing the same social pathologies reserved for black men by Black Women, White Men and the Media, This is what the Civil Rights movement was about, securing every opprounity for African- Americans to be able to enjoy the fruits of Ameican Life, economical, politcal and socially and that also means romance.

It just happens in the last 30 years, Black Women have taken the promise of those brave men and women who marched, were lynched, and violently killed for that right so nearly 50years we can talk about Black Women and Asian Men dating or marriage. But those kids will not be black males (they will be biracial) but they will live the father’s lifestyle and have his values which in many cases they will be culturally white, hispanic and asian that’s the way it is st8 no chaser.

Then Treacle wrote in response:

To eric daniels:

"B and Rachel, I don’t buy the “lack of eligible Black Men in 2008 no more than I did in the 80’s when professional and stable working- class Black Men run that nonsense by me."

You’re wrong. This is why we have things like census data.

According to the 2000 US Census, there are only 7 single black men for every 10 single black women and that does not count the 1 out of 15 black men who are incarcerated.

Therefore, there is a shortage of eligible black men.

Then eric daniels wrote:

Treacle, There are 18 million Black Men Living in the U.S.A. 450,000 are in jail the other 500,000 are on probation or legal supervision. Most Black Men are not in jail, on the DL or mentally screwed up. Many Black Men are plumbers, construction workers, barbers, salespeople, small buisnesman or working 2-3 jobs like many other Americans. I would venture to say that the number of Americans holding advanced degrees is about 15-25 % percent of Americans.

Stop watching "Something New" and "Waiting to Inhale" or any Black Feminist track, most black men don’t call black women “bitches and hos” nor are they down at the gay bar picking up a ‘gay thug’ or a ‘drag queen’ nor are we gangbanging and killing each other for property we don’t own, and many of those stats you site generally only count Black Men who either have…

Advanced Degrees
Make a certain amount of money
Own a home, or have assets . . .

Waiting to Inhale? Does this movie involve Angela Bassett burning her trifling husband's clothes, too?

Cheers!

.

To emphasize my previous laments,

including I'm a normal person., I should share this with everyone!, Agree to Disagree? and Jigaboos & Wannabees, I offer you the following:

Racist Parents Kidnap Daughter and Try to Force Abortion, by Rachel S. at Alas, a blog, via Racialicious and Rachel's Tavern. Emphases mine.

A few days ago I read a story from Rueters (sic) about a couple from Maine, who kidnapped their 19 year old daughter. They forced her into a car, and tried taking her to New York so they could force her to have an abortion. The daughter escaped and called police while she hid in a store in New Hampshire. The parents have been arrested and held on $100,000 bail. After reading the first couple paragraphs of the story, my immediate reaction was, “I wonder if the potential father is black.” However, the initial article reveals very little about the motive. After my initial read, the only motive I could glean was that the parents were mad that the boyfriend was in jail. But, this story didn’t add up to me. So yesterday, one of my students mentioned the story and said that–the kidnapped woman’s boyfriend is a black man, and the daughter told police that racism was a motive in the kidnapping.

Based on my research on interracial relationships, this story actually fits fairly well into the narratives I have seen in many white families where relatives strongly object to interracial relationships. The only thing that surprises me about the story is that the parents attempted to kidnap this woman; the cases I know of personally generally involve less direct coercion. I know of 2 cases (one in my research and one in another sociological study) where parents of a white person in an interracial relationship suggested, encouraged, and promoted abortion to prevent the birth of a biracial child (I am hesitantly using the term biracial because most of the white relatives would say the child is black.). I also know of other cases where people encouraged white mother’s to place a child for adoption because the child’s father was black, and I know of many situations where white families offered bribes and/or withdrew emotional and/or financial support as a way to discourage an interracial relationship or a pregnancy that resulted from such a relationship. In these cases, white relatives feel they are protecting the family’s reputation, and/or they feel that the relative in the interracial relationship is too naive (especially women) to know what she/he is getting into. White relatives who feel this way believe that birth of a biracial child is a permanent marker of an interracial relationship that will hurt their relative’s social standing (white privilege), and to some extent, I’m sure they are right about this. The irony of this is that many white relatives of interracial couples would be the first to say that race doesn’t matter or that whites do not have unearned privileges, but suddenly when it hits close to home, they change their tune . . .

Readers, I'm not saying that you are like the people mentioned in the article. I'm saying that people like that exist and they are plentiful. Therefore, I'm still alone. :(

[Insert tiny violin here.]

For a conflicting twist, the picture above comes from this article:

Not tonight, dear . . . in fact, not ever, by Dr. Pam Spurr at Times Online, via Feministing. Emphases mine.

Having researched my new book, as well as talked to thousands of men and women over the years, I now firmly believe that too many women see the sexual side of their lives as something to be claimed completely and utterly as their own. That’s fine for single women flexing their sexual muscles.

But once they settle into a relationship, many will continue to do so. This doesn’t make sense to me at all – and unfortunately I’m privy to the heartbreak and distress that goes along with this view . . .

At the risk of being called old-fashioned (though I don’t think that old-fashioned should always have negative connotations) and antifeminist, I’d go so far as to say that for both partners sex could be considered a duty, if it is something that one partner knows would make the other happy. Does he really want to go up on the roof to repair a leak on a Sunday afternoon? Does she really want to take out the rubbish in the pouring rain? No, but partners in relationships do such things because they know that it makes the other happy. Sex should be seen in the same light . . .

I can't even enjoy the rarely featured interracial couple in peace; I have worry about my vaginal duties to my nonexistent husband, too.
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