Friday, May 23, 2008

It's not just me.

Here are even more comments to go along with yesterday's post, Another discussion that needs to start happening.

I agree with Shelby :

Demographics: I’m a 21 yr old black woman from a middle class (99%white) background.

I can identify SO much with the other black women here who haven’t gotten ANY love from anyBODY. And it does chip away at my self-esteem. Big time. No one approached me, ever, in high school and I figured that was just because white guys didn’t date black girls in my town. But the REAL blow didn’t come til college when virtually no guy, of any race, has ever approached me. I would love to be in a relationship with a caring person of any race, but it just doesn’t happen. The only time black guys try to holla is if they think I’m mixed. Once they find out both my parents are black they’re done. And the only other guys that even try to talk to me are drunk white boys who want me to shake my @ss for them.

Needless to say it’s all really disheartening. And I could be in a relationship right now if I lowered my standards and allowed myself to be exoticized. But who really wants that?

It’s hard being aware. [I hear that. Things were easier when I thought I was just an unpopular dork.] I can’t forget the fact that, as a black woman, I have virtually no value to the general population. And I see this fact confirmed just about every day :/

The following comment from Korolev sounds kinda familiar, emphases mine:

People like who they like, and that can be across ethnic lines. Nobody should feel ashamed for being attracted to someone they like.

Human beings are rather simple when it comes to matters such as sex or relationships. Somehow I strongly doubt that anyone starts a relationship thinking “ah-hah, this is my primary method of subliminally rejecting my culture and betraying my people! Surely this relationship is the perfect vehicle in which to express my self-loathing and complete my goal of destroying my background!” I doubt anyone thinks that when getting into a relationship. Usually…. it’s, um, a lot more simple and visual than that.

Now, a lot has been made of “racial fetishes”, and they exist, sure. But pretty much everyone has a “fetish” of some sort. If men tend to date skinnier woman, do they have “thin” fetish? And when woman constantly tell me “I’ll only date taller men”, isn’t that a type of fetish itself? And if someone exclusively dates within their own ethnic group, isn’t that a form of “fetish”?

At the end of the day, if someone really believes that all races are 100% equal, that all of humanity is truly united by our shared genetic template, then they wouldn’t care. Those who argue that inter-racial relationships “destroy self-esteem” are secretly racists - as in, they believe differences exist between races.

Again, if you truly believe that race is unimportant, you wouldn’t care who was dating who. All of humanity is the same. When you look at an Asian woman dating a black man or a black man dating a Native-American woman or a white man dating an Arabic woman or an Indian man dating an Asian woman, you shouldn’t think of their ethnicity, merely their common humanity.

I know that some people get angry when they seem members of their own ethnicity having so much success with inter-racial relationships. This form of envy is particularly acute in the Asian community. But at the end of the day, if you really, 100% believe that all of humanity is equal, you wouldn’t care who dated who.

Those who care about such things often see race - as in they think in terms of “our women” or “their men” or “our group”. That’s a form of racism - let me be clear - anyone who believes that race has any biological significance is a racist. That’s what the dictionary says. Therefore, it is racist to say things like “our women” or “our men”.

I know that some people get “hurt” when the perceive “their own” woman abandoning them. However, those thoughts are completely racist and unacceptable. No one should ever feel ashamed about who they like, no one should ever feel a “duty” to marry within ethnic lines, and no one has the right to tell someone “your love is just a fetish”.

To oppose interracial relationships is to oppose the unity of humanity. The human species is united, gloriously and completely through our common genetic template, a wonderful unity that is sadly realized by too few in this world.

We are a united species, in truth through DNA.

DNA? Oh, the hilarity. The jokes continue with eric daniels again. Emphases mine, sic and run-on sentences his:

. . . My problem with Black Feminists and Black Women in general [Yes, all of us] streotype black men in every way since the 80’s just like Black Men telling me in the 1980’s (and today)saying that “sistas want too much” in a relationship and white women are easier to deal with, and with “many” Black Women say that there are no ‘eligble Black Men left’ with the same excuses, so what is an eligible man if you saw “Something New” in Kris Turner’s flawed world an IBM (Ideal Black Man)was a brotha with

1. an advanced degree
2. makes high 5 figures and up
3. lives in 6-7 figure home/apt
4. goes to expensive restraunts
5. dresses right and has good, clean white teeth and metrosexual
6. Is close to making partner at the law firm

So if these are the standards that educated Black Women and increasing numbers of the middle and working class have for black men these days, then I say with all due respect date White, Asian, Hispanic and men of other races and I hope you find that common connection and future happiness at least I know where Black Women stand in the modern dating/marriage game.

Well, good for him.

Elton's response to Korolev made more sense:

. . . Why can’t we all just be colorblind? And forget the past few hundred years of colonialism, oppression, and injustice? Asian-American men are not ignorant of history. We discuss terms like “White knight” and “White worship” because they are relevant to the history of our patterns of immigration to America and the rest of the Western world, and how we were treated by the dominant white powers. Let me ask you this: Do you know why so many Asian men (historically and even now) run laundries, restaurants, grocery stores, and gas stations? Did you notice that during WWII, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War that the US occupied three major Asian countries? Do you know the profound impact on Asian and American culture the past 60 years of occupation has had? The American phenomenon of Asian babies being adopted predominantly by white families and the outmarriage of Asian women to black and white American men, beginning with soldiers, are but two of the myriad effects of cultural imperialism. But hey, at least we have Tiger Woods and Chinese buffets.

G. Leigh wrote:


” Also, there is less of a problem for beautiful black women who also appear mixed.”

I’d really like to nip this kind of thinking in the bud.

I am one of those women. I appear mixed, but both of my parents are Black. I am beautiful, I am educated, talented, fun, single, no children, financially independent, normally neurotic, living in Manhattan and an artist. I get looks from Black men, and I have had two marriage offers from Black men who, I realized, really just wanted a trophy, a doll to look at and play with. When they realized I was a 3-dimensional woman with a brain and feelings and opinions this made them very uncomfortable. I said “no” to both proposals. (However, I don’t think that particular issue is limited to Black women–I think that a man wanting to marry a woman for the wrong reasons is just common to womankind).

Since then I have dated a Black man from Trinidad (who didn’t want to get married), a WASP, a Cuban and the latest one a nice Jewish boy from Long Island. No Black man has asked me out in five years. I’ve been holla-ed or inappropriately approached (”hey baby” or worse, etc.) but that is it. When I ignore that type of approach, the standard response is “I bet if I was white you’d like me.” I’ve heard that so many times it doesn’t phase me anymore.

When I used to go to parties, clubs or events with primarily Black people, many women would clutch their men when I walked in the room. I’ve stopped attending those kind of events.

I have had Black men let me know that they were dating a White or Asian woman–and the emphasis was always on the woman’s race, and it was held up to me as some kind of personal victory for them. A kind of “See? You light and everything but I got someone better than you–I got the authentic, non-white woman.” It’s hard to explain, but anyone who has had this experience will know exactly what I am talking about. I think it’s really sick and pathological.

Things are not easier for a fair-skinned, “beautiful” , maybe mixed-Black woman. My pysche is that of a Black person, specifically my daddy who was raised in the segregated south. I find it hard to believe that a man outside my race is interested in me for other than my looks. (Another issue of being raised primarily by my dad. I was taught to pay more attention to my brains than my looks, so when my outside is paid more attention than my inside it still freaks me out). Whenever a man who is non-Black shows an interest in me I pretty much don’t know how to respond, and the man thinks I am not interested in him and backs off.

I pretty much ruined things with the nice Jewish boy, and am working on getting that back. I couldn’t stand the stares; I thought it was because we were a interracial couple. Finally I confessed to one of my friends why I stopped dating him and she looked at me like I was crazy. She said, “People stared at you two because you’re both really good-looking. You ass.” (it was said with love). I really didn’t get it. And I had pushed away someone who really liked me, and was funny, sweet and kind.

So, again, what is supposed to be easier for us yallas in relationships? Let me tell you, absolutely nothing. That is a big, fat myth.

I would like to get married and have a family. I would welcome a decent man of any race. If I do not deal with my “stuff”, I am going to miss out on happiness.

Who has time for revenge dating when just dating period can be so hard?

Then eric daniels wrote something about The Sopranos, and if we were bringing up TV shows, I wanted to interject with my feeling about Best Week Ever, because I love that show.

Anyhoodle, later lemure wrote (emphases mine):

This discussion (and that photo) is extremely fascinating to me, despite the regurgitation of some painful stereotypes and memories.

I spent alot of angry years on and off lamenting about why I spent so many nights watching White girlfriends, who I really thought I, and many of my girlfriends of color, were more attractive than both inside and out, get asked out and fawned over on endless dates. It was particularly hard in college, because I left my diverse NYC for an Ivy, AND it was my first allowed entry in the dating world.

I knew it wasn’t because I wasn’t good looking. Plenty of White, Black, and everything in between told me I was hot, hell a whole frat was infatuated. But, all these men just saw me as a sex object, not a potential relationship. I was very young, naive, and clueless. While I kept the wolves at bay, the entire experience left me very jaded and feeling quite tainted. I’m not biracial (not in the most immediate sense), at the time my appeal was based on form, face, probably an adorable Grenadian/Brooklyn accent and to both alot of Black (cuz they were raised with White people) and White men on being “something new”, especially since this NY kid wasn’t fearful of any new color.

I have two South Asian girlfriends, one is Pakistani, one is Indian and their experiences were the same as mine. I moved back to NY after college, with the bitterness of four years, that slowly subsided with age and wisdom. I learned to stay away from the type of guys I met in college and after a few long term relationships and many very, very short term. I decided not to date White men anymore. I dated plenty, too many issues of various kinds. My head knows that it isn’t fair, but my feelings are different. My South Asian girlfriends moved to NY, and you know what? They pretty much gave up on White men too, similar reasons. The Pakistani girl is trying to find her perfect Pakistani Muslim knight (she’s beautiful, but the ones she meets find her “too dark” and too career driven). My Bengali friend is American and finds it hard to meet a soul mate that matches her, but she’s shown interested in some cute East Asian doctors that work with her. I’m very tough and picky, but I didn’t find the perfect Grenadian man, but I’m in love with another Caribbean, Puerto Rico but close enough.

I don’t condone the namecalling in the name of bitterness, but I understand it. How one is perceived in desirability has a HUGE effect on one’s self esteem. Being a sex object can make you feel both powerful and powerless, lack of attention can make you feel non existent. Hell years ago I said to myself Asian men and Black women should try dating each other. Its worked pretty well in the islands (incl my tree) for awhile. Yeah love is love, but it would be nicer if everyone was getting it.

That's all for now! Feel free to leave comments. Also, I noticed no one has commented on my chimpanzee post, and I thought that post was funny! Chimpanzee vote. Ha ha? Because they're fictional? And even if they were real, they're not human? It's funny, gosh darn it!


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